Numbat

Just thought I’d share with the tribe a couple of issues I’m having with the Vintage. (I still love my ride).

A couple of days ago after about 10 days of not riding the bike since its service and gear position switch recall, I went to start the bike and found I couldn’t.

The key fob error light was on in the tank display and so I tried with my PIN and still couldn’t start.

I retried several times over about a half hour period and still nothing.

I rang Mandurah Holden (Indian dealer in Mandurah WA) for advice, explained the situation and Mark the techie walked me through the starting procedures and still nothing. They went off to find a dealer PIN that might work and whilst waiting for them to call back I kept persisting and finally I was able to restart using my PIN.

Once started the key fob warning on the display disappeared and all seemed normal again. This has happened twice now, and once my horn started sounding whilst the bike was running, indicating that the keyfob has lost it’s connection. FOB has new battery as that was the first thing I did after it happened the first time.

The other issue I have been having is when first riding off (making sure to let the bike warm up) and on approach to intersections as I change down, the bike stalls. It restarts easily – but can take a good 8 -10 mins of riding before it stops doing this. I am conscious of this and do not blip the throttle as this also stalls the bike when cold.

From my research on the forum and a few phone calls I understand that the factory fuel mapping runs very lean on the Indians, and have been advised that a dyno and PowerCommanderV or PowerVision 3 will fix this issue.

I find that at low revs and low gear (ie small roundabouts and car parks) and even being careful to roll the throttle on gently the bike is very jerky or temperamental to manoeuvre. I have the 116 Stage 3 BBK fitted and realise that the cams can make it a bit lumpy but this appear different. I always use 98 octane fuel.

Which I guess leads me to ask wise heads on the forum which to go with -  PCV or Powervision3. I have contacted two places in Perth that do the dyno and one recommends PCV and the other Powervision3.

I must point out that I have very limited technical and mechanical knowledge and get easily confused🤔.

I have read most of the posts on here regarding the PCV etc but am none the wiser -  anyone care to confuse me further.... 🤨

Brad - SoR, Perth WA

2018 Indian Chief Vintage (Willow Green & Ivory)
Stage 3 116 Big Bore Kit, Stage 1 Pipes, fishtails & air cleaner
Beach Bars
IMRG: AU102531
Quote 0 0
Croc
Have had fob issues on my Chief Vintage since new (as in riding home from Darwin to Alice).  Had a lot of problems getting it sorted but Still have the intermittent problem with the fob.  Figured it might just be my bike, but.....  I often have the problem with the horn going off after I atart the bike, but found shutting the engine off & restarting fixes it.  Not perfect but, great bike, imperfect world.
Besides, as with my speedo problem on the Scout, it Never happens anywhere Near a dealer!  ðŸ˜–
I'm Not Completely Useless . .
I Can Be Used As A Bad Example!

Kwinana W.A.

Ulysses   #48275
IMRG      #100932
Quote 0 0
Numbat
Croc wrote:
great bike, imperfect world.
Besides, as with my speedo problem on the Scout, it Never happens anywhere Near a dealer!  Ã°Å¸Ëœâ€“


True Croc

Couple of months ago sat in my driveway - engine running, horn sounding - and couldnt turn my bike off. Power button didn't work and kill switch didnt work.

After 5 mins just shut off.😖
Brad - SoR, Perth WA

2018 Indian Chief Vintage (Willow Green & Ivory)
Stage 3 116 Big Bore Kit, Stage 1 Pipes, fishtails & air cleaner
Beach Bars
IMRG: AU102531
Quote 0 0
Dr.Shifty
Fob problems can also be caused by having the fob in a pocket with keys or coins. The metal attenuates the signal and the bike can't find the fob.

Some people have found that the throttle body boots age and crack and so they let in air, which at low rpm makes a great difference but not so much at higher rpm. The symptoms are what you describe with the stalling etc. The problem is associated with age of the rubber boot and should not be the case with your bike.

An associated fault is that the clamp that holds the boot to the cylinder is not tight enough or out of position. This could happen if it slipped out of position when the mechanic was making the 116 upgrade.

The PV3 and PC-V, Power Vision vs Power Commander, often get people confused, especially as they are both made by DynoJet.

The PC-V is a fuel controller that attaches permanently to the bike, reads the fuel injection commands to the injectors, adjusts those commands according to the way it's set up by the installer, and sends the adjusted commands to the injectors. There is an associated module that does similar adjustments to the ignition timing. Sometimes they are installed as a pair but not always.

The PVCX / PV3 is a module that rewrites a lot of data in the engine management computer. It plugs to the bike's data port, reflashes the computer with a tune designed by the operator, and is removed from the bike. It can change fueling, timing, and lots of other data as well. There is software available to make personal changes to the tune on a desktop, send the new tune to the PV3 and reflash at will.

Most dyno tuners over the years would have used the PC-V as this can be used for any brand of bike or computer and they have become familiar with the module.

The PV3 is designed to work with a certain bike or computer - such as Indian bikes and the Bosch computer. There are different models for Scout, TS111 bikes and Challenger, and each one is permanently paired with only one bike. Many tuners are becoming familiar with the PV3 and are able to tune with it.

I've had the PVCX on both my Indians. I've also made my own changes to the tune for some data not related to fueling, such as the idle speed in colder weather and throttle response to get more action with less twist of the throttle - my Springfield started out with a very lazy throttle.
Cheers, Kim.

From Woodrising (no, nobody else has heard of it either)
Rides a Springfield Dark Horse
Quote 0 0
V-Twin
Hi Numbat,

I am sorry to hear about the issues you are having with your bike.  Your key fob issue is not normal.  Especially since your bike will not start even with a PIN, I speculate the issue is with the onboard computer.  They are not cheap.  Is the bike still covered by warranty?  I would get that addressed by the Polaris authorised dealer before the warranty runs out.  The new ECM (Engine Control Module) was about $2,000.

As for the the stalling issues, have a read of this post.  It might help.

https://www.indianmotorcycleforum.com.au/post/thunder-stroke-engine-stalling-or-throttle-misbehaving-10042568

Cheers!
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
Numbat
Thanks Doc

Does the pcvx have to have a Dyno done or can I just order one and attempt it myself using one of their maps or is that not recommended for someone like myself with limited understanding or ability.
Brad - SoR, Perth WA

2018 Indian Chief Vintage (Willow Green & Ivory)
Stage 3 116 Big Bore Kit, Stage 1 Pipes, fishtails & air cleaner
Beach Bars
IMRG: AU102531
Quote 0 0
Numbat
Thanks V

i hadn’t seen that article and it describes the symptoms I hav been having.  I noticed the question was asked is it something you can do yourself or does it have to go back to a dealer.

if I do the throttle Relearn should I still consider pcvx or not necessary
Brad - SoR, Perth WA

2018 Indian Chief Vintage (Willow Green & Ivory)
Stage 3 116 Big Bore Kit, Stage 1 Pipes, fishtails & air cleaner
Beach Bars
IMRG: AU102531
Quote 0 0
V-Twin
Numbat wrote:
Thanks V

i hadn’t seen that article and it describes the symptoms I hav been having.  I noticed the question was asked is it something you can do yourself or does it have to go back to a dealer.

if I do the throttle Relearn should I still consider pcvx or not necessary
We didn't get the do-it-yourself-guide. But most competent dealers should know what it is and how to perform it.

As for an aftermarket tuning, it is a contentious topic.

Some people are happy with their aftermarket tunes, and others are not. How perceptive is the rider to the behaviour (or misbehaviour) of their bike? That is a factor as well. Knowing the motivation of the owner helps too. For example, factory (Indian) tunes must comply with EPA regulations, cope with various environments (altitude, humidity, temperature, etc.,) from around the world, so they are conservative for sure. If you want to get 100% of the power out of your bike, an aftermarket tune is the only option (which voids warranty). If you've modified the engine beyond what the factory tune can cope with, aftermarket tune is also your only option.

It is essential to understand this! Tuning an engine properly is very difficult and time-consuming. Even Indian Motorcycle themselves can't get it right for about 6 to 12 months. When Stage 2 first came out, the Indian tune was a shocker. This drove a lot of people to try the aftermarket tunes and tuners. I was one of them. I was happy with it for a while, but the bike would misbehave as the weather got hotter or colder, etc... After spending over $3,000 on mail-order tune to custom dyno tune, I had everything taken off and gone back to the factory tune. By the time I reverted to the factory tune, the power difference between the factory tune and the dyno tune was negligible.

It is also important to note that not all dyno tuners are the same. Some are competent, while others are paid to experiment on your bike. In the motor industry, calibration (creating the perfect factory tune) takes a team of engineers and programmers many months, tested across multiple continents (to experience snow, desert heat, sea level and mountain top altitudes). Do you think even the best dyno tuner can substitute that level of tuning in just a few days of custom dyno tuning?

I like John. He is a no BS type. He is talking about cars, but many of his points apply to our bikes.



This is just my opinion. As I said, many folks are happy with both their mail-order tunes and custom dyno tunes. In the end, we have to decide for ourselves what is the right path for ourselves.
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
Numbat

Thanks again V. 

interesting that you said an aftermarket tune voids the warranty

this is a joint in the west that I rang and an article on their website. The chap I spoke with seemed to know his stuff and was the one who recommends the pv3 over the pc5

https://www.thebobbergarage.com/indian-tuning

interesting.  I am not seeking the tune to gain extra power just to get the bike running smoothly - I understand that the extra power will be a bi-product of a proper tune

i am leaning towards this option at the moment


Brad - SoR, Perth WA

2018 Indian Chief Vintage (Willow Green & Ivory)
Stage 3 116 Big Bore Kit, Stage 1 Pipes, fishtails & air cleaner
Beach Bars
IMRG: AU102531
Quote 0 0
V-Twin
Numbat wrote:
interesting that you said an aftermarket tune voids the warranty

this is a joint in the west that I rang and an article on their website. The chap I spoke with seemed to know his stuff and was the one who recommends the pv3 over the pc5

As stated in my original post, Indian Motorcycle do update their tunes, often monthly, in the early days of a new product launch (i.e. Stage 2 or Stage 3).  If the author of that article is commenting on an early tune, I'm sure it was terrible.  Is the latest stock factory tune still terrible? What about the factory tune for Stage 1?  Who knows. I know the stage 2 tune was pretty decent.  I don't know anything about the Bobber Garage, but their website is written to drum up business for them so... 😉

Numbat wrote:
i am leaning towards this option at the moment
Please get the "Throttle Relearn Procedure" reset by a Polaris dealer first and have the latest factory tune for your bike installed.  Remember, once the ECM is re-flashed, it has to relearn how you ride.  So ride around for a week or two, and if you still want to tune it, go for it. 

Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
Numbat
Cheers V

I’ll take your advice and hold off on the tune and Pv3 at least until the warranty runs out.

tried again yesterday with the fob and another  new battery just in case - it won’t connect. Pin works so okay for the moment.  Will contact dealer next week to arrange to have the fob reset and talk to them about the throttle relearn procedure and if there are any new tune updates from Indian. Given that it was only serviced two weeks ago I presume they would have been updated automatically if available but I will ask the question


Brad - SoR, Perth WA

2018 Indian Chief Vintage (Willow Green & Ivory)
Stage 3 116 Big Bore Kit, Stage 1 Pipes, fishtails & air cleaner
Beach Bars
IMRG: AU102531
Quote 0 0
Dr.Shifty

Numbat wrote:
Thanks Doc

Does the pcvx have to have a Dyno done or can I just order one and attempt it myself using one of their maps or is that not recommended for someone like myself with limited understanding or ability.


I see that V-Twin has posted on tunes already, but there are things not answered. It's also significant that V-Twin had the piggyback PC-V on his bike, not a PV3 tune.

A dyno tune is good if the shop does good work. Different people have different levels of competence. It's also expensive, probably $750 to $1000 these days. Not everyone goes for a better tune for max power. Many people want more consistent fueling, better consumption, smoother running, better acceleration rather than top speed, getting rid of the well known flat spot in the middle of the rpm range. There are lots of variations apart from top speed power.

Both Dynojet, who makes the PV3, and Fuel Moto, a highly professional tuning shop who sells them, have tunes available. People find FuelMoto good to deal with as they offer updates to tunes, such as if you make changes to the bike, for life.

There is also a guy on this forum and the international forum named CraigB1960 who is Fuel Moto's tuning guru. He tests bikes with different brand pipes etc and sets up tunes for a lot of combinations of aftermarket gear. He's a very personable man to deal with and well respected in Indian circles.

The most popular way to proceed is to buy from Fuel Moto and get either one of their tunes (they ask what gear you have on the bike) or contact CraigB and get one, also free.

For those wanting to do more, the PV3 can log fueling info and the user can adjust the tune according to those logs and reflash. This is repeated maybe five or ten times and each time the tune gets smoother and smoother as it becomes more dedicated to the actual motor it's running on. Fuel Moto has a paid-for service where you log the bike and send them the logs and Craig makes the changes and returns a new tune. Reflash and repeat.

The question of warranty gets mixed responses. The official Indian Australia shops (now gone) were more likely to say that any change to the tune voids the warranty. They can't pull this excuse if it's not the motor that's causing problems but auto companies love to use scare tactics to drive you to their workshop. I've got a HD mate who was looking at aftermarket pipes. The HD shop was prepared to sell him the pipes but unless he also paid them to install them (he wanted to do his own installation) they said him working on the bike would void his warranty. He buckled and decided to wait until his warranty expires before he puts on any pipes.

My local privately owned Indian dealer told me that tuning with the PVCX would not void the warranty. Having said that, they were not the ones paying for the warranty, but they would also have done more to protect their customer than the Indian shops. They have a dyno tuner and are often tuning bikes straight out of the box for customers. They were not at all concerned when they found out my bike had a PVCX tune and non-Indian aftermarket cams. My warranty ran out on Dec 31st last year, 50,000 kms with no motor problems - clutch cable and TPMS sensor were the only warranty items.

Cheers, Kim.

From Woodrising (no, nobody else has heard of it either)
Rides a Springfield Dark Horse
Quote 0 0
Numbat
Thanks Kim

And therein lies my confusion............

The Indian techie at Mandurah Holden (our pop up dealer in the West and our only option) recommended the PCV from a place called Chain Reaction in Perth. Apparently they did a lot of tunes for the Perth Indian dealership whilst it was open.  ( https://chainreactionmotorcycles.com.au/#services ).

However the warranty issue concerns me and I very much doubt that the Mandurah Holden would commit anything in writing to alay my fears.

I can see the merits of what you and V-twin are both saying.

I think that Throttle Relearn Procedure might be my first option. If anyone on the forum has done this themselves or knows the procedure perhaps they could share it?


Brad - SoR, Perth WA

2018 Indian Chief Vintage (Willow Green & Ivory)
Stage 3 116 Big Bore Kit, Stage 1 Pipes, fishtails & air cleaner
Beach Bars
IMRG: AU102531
Quote 0 0
V-Twin
Dr.Shifty wrote:
I see that V-Twin has posted on tunes already, but there are things not answered. It's also significant that V-Twin had the piggyback PC-V on his bike, not a PV3 tune.
I have also tried FuelMoto Power Vision CX with their email tunes (several).  The first tune I received, raised the idle by about 500rpm, the air cleaner popped when I blipped the throttle and it also exhibited other strange behaviours.

Numbat wrote:
And therein lies my confusion............

The Indian techie at Mandurah Holden (our pop up dealer in the West and our only option) recommended the PCV from a place called Chain Reaction in Perth. 
As Shifty has stated, Power Commander V (PCV) is a piggy back system.  We had to put up with it because Dynojet (makers of Power Vision and Commander) wasn't able to crack/hack the factory Bosch ECM encryption and reverse engineer all the values and codes.  Once that was achieved, the Power Vision CX (PVCX) was introduced (which allowed reprogramming of the Bosch tune).  The Power Vision 3 (PV3) is an improvement over the PVCX.

In my humble opinion, if you must tune your Indian in 2020, PV3 is the only way to go (I still recommend sticking with the factory tune).  If anyone recommends the older devices, they may not be familiar with the latest tech.
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
Numbat
Thanks V. I’ll still wait for the warranty to expire before I get the pv3 
Brad - SoR, Perth WA

2018 Indian Chief Vintage (Willow Green & Ivory)
Stage 3 116 Big Bore Kit, Stage 1 Pipes, fishtails & air cleaner
Beach Bars
IMRG: AU102531
Quote 1 0
V-Twin
Numbat wrote:
Thanks V. I’ll still wait for the warranty to expire before I get the pv3 
Do remember that, if you don't get the throttle relearn procedure done, you may continue to experience the stalling issue with or without the pv3.
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 1 0