DarkScout
Over resent weeks or even days it has become very clear to me that this forum has lost its way from its original beginings to be a forum for free information sharing, I have been informed by the forum moderator that by post suspension setup advice or help with photo's attached depicting suspension that has any relationship to myself, as this is by the forum moderator as a soft selling or promoting a product to sell, nor am I able to helping others by making any suggestions on how to make improvements to the ride geometry of a motorcycle, as its promoting Darkscout Custom suspension, as it will be deleted and has been in the past, I may do so as long as I don't mention any products that has any relation to myself or the words Darkscout/suspension or any photo's with suspension in it, essentially making the posting of free suspension help information impossible, without having it deleted,  for me to support others members and help them I have to pay to forum a fee to supply and give out free information or help when asked. 

As I have made it clear to the forum moderator as they have also made it clear to me, I have no issues with paying the forum, providing I can edit my vendor section as I see fit, currently all the vendor section is a thread and requires a moderator to change delete old or irrelevant information, and in the past they the moderator would not remove an old out of date product as I requested this was the reason why I stopped been vendor in the beginning, and why I won't pay, as this forum has no privations for a vendor in the true form, so with the restriction that the moderator have imposed on me just make it to difficult to help others in a way that I would like, and as such I can see no advantage in been a part of this forum, having to pay to give free advice on this forum is not expectable.

At the end of this month I will be no long a member of this forum. I wish you all well stay safe and stay upright.

Reg
Darkscout
Quote 3 1
CHF10

It's like the US forum all over again. Why can't people understand that there's a big difference between FREE ADVICE and PRODUCT PROMOTION? Probably for whatever reason some people seem to think there is no difference between "moderation" and "censorship". This is what kills forums.

Will be sorry to see you go mate, and a founding member at that. Was also great to meet you in Albury. You're a top bloke. Cheers!

Live free or die!
Quote 1 0
crash
Whilst I appreciate your point of view there is something that seems to escape the view of all users of this forum and that is that it is free to all who want to use it.  
Now whilst that is a noble and great thing to say, the forum at some point is going to have to stand on it's own two feet and just as members go to work and receive an income stream, so to must the forum - even if it is only to break even.

Enabling people to put their points of view across and to offer assistance where they have experience and knowledge is encouraged however there have to be guidelines.  These guidelines serve a number of purposes.
1. to ensure that the community is able to get the most out of the forum without feeling intimidated or belittled.
2. to ensure that the legal requirements of hosting a service such as this are adhered to.
3. to ensure that we can all read content without having to endure profanity.
4. to ensure that people respect other members of the community in accordance with the rules and regulations of the forum.

It does appear however that for reasons that are unknown people are quite happy to consume, communicate and enjoy the benefits of the forum without actually having to contribute to the upkeep and maintenance of the site or having any consideration to the rules and regulations of this forum.  The forum members are not requested to donate or contribute other than providing content (and that is a point worth remembering).

It also appears that when the suggestion of assisting in the upkeep and maintenance of the site as a supporting vendor for promoting goods and services that any reasonable organization would charge for, this becomes the fault of the forum (not sure that I understand why).

Now whilst I understand Darkscouts position here it seems that there has only been consideration of one side of this equation.  I find it interesting that DarkScout has come to the conclusion that this forum has lost it's way when the point in question is the advertising of goods and services for financial gain on a commercial level is the issue in question.  I don't advertise my business on this forum and if I did I would expect to have to pay for such advertising.

I respect your decision to no longer contribute because you cannot contribute without advertising your product.  I am saddened by the thought that you believe that this is all you can contribute.

It also appears that when the rules and regulations associated with the forum are breached and intervention is required, this is also the fault of the forum.

Just as a final note.  The people that own and run this forum do so as a hobby, not as a job.  They all have jobs and other interests.  Some of you enjoy the writings of people on the forum, some of you have made good friends as a result of this forum, some of you also have learned some interesting information that helps you and saves you money as a result of this forum and that's what it is all about.

There is nothing wrong with advertising someones product in the interest of the general forum, there is however something wrong with a vendor advertising their product on the forum without contributing financially to the overall upkeep of the forum. 

Maybe the term "Vendor" is what is in question here.  A vendor is someone who sells product and services as an ongoing concern, this includes cottage industries as well as registered businesses.  

This forum will never take the place of a vendors website and should never be considered as such.  For a vendor to sponsor this forum is permission for the vendor to promote their product within the constructs of this forum.  If you would like to provide any further information to the members then it may be a better idea to refer them directly to your own infrastructure in which you have control over your own content.

Lets talk about "Free advice" and "Product Promotion" for a minute. 
Free advise is where an individual offers suggestions or information on products or services that the individual has no financial interest in.  This advice is offered on an "as is" basis and there is no warranties given or implied with this "free advice"
Product Promotion is where a person or group are discussing products and / or services that the individual has a financial interest in.  This discussion is not offered on an "as is" basis and there are warranties implied - as with all marketable product.
If I have a product for sale, this could be that I have removed mine and replaced it with something else.
If I have 100 products for sale, this is a business and has to be treated accordingly.
If I manufacture products for a particular brand of vehicle, this is also a business and has to be treated accordingly.

Now for "moderation" and "censorship".
The forum consists of a lot of users, these users are of different nationalities, religions, sexes.  The forum has rules in place to ensure that we all play nicely.  These rules and regulations define acceptable behavior from all individuals on this forum and moderation is the process of adjusting statements and comments to ensure that the comments and statements stay within the rules.  If these statements or comments cannot be adjusted then they are removed.  This is pretty plain and simple.  If you abuse, berate, intimidate or belittle another member then be prepared for moderation.
Censorship is removing content that is has nothing to do with the rules and regulations of the forum but is merely designed to stifle discussion around a particular topic.

The people that perform the moderation on this forum don't do this lightly and quite often there is discussion amongst other moderators as to the action to be taken.  They are doing the best that they can..............

In my opinion If you don't like it - leave.
Ulysses #30673
IMRG #AU100394
Current: RoadMaster (ebony and ivory)
Highett Victoria Australia
Quote 5 2
CHF10

What is someone to do though, in the circumstances where they are an expert in a field and also happen to be a proprietor of a business that directly profits off that expertise?

If I recommend speaking to Darkscout about his suspension solutions because I know first hand that they're fantastic and will significantly improve ride and handling, that's fine. But if he recommends his own product in the interests of ADVICE and not trying to make a sale, that's not allowed? He's actually better positioned to provide advice than I am but because he also sells something he mentions in his advice he can't say anything? He's not getting on and saying "buy this product I sell to solve your problems". He's getting on and explaining how something works and WHY it's better in ways I can't even begin to understand and letting people make up their own mind if they want to buy it or not.

I don't know whether I'm explaining it in a way that makes sense, but I was recently at the caravan and camping show and to draw on my experience there.... There were guys happy to talk with us as long as we wanted about the products without ever trying to sell us anything, answering every question we had until we were done, thanked them and left. And then there were the guys who the whole time you're talking to them keep pushing the sale and even as you're walking away will be pushing the "deal you can get if you buy today" type of thing. Darkscout isn't pitching a sale when he's providing advice.

crash wrote:
It does appear however that for reasons that are unknown people are quite happy to consume, communicate and enjoy the benefits of the forum without actually having to contribute to the upkeep and maintenance of the site or having any consideration to the rules and regulations of this forum.  The forum members are not requested to donate or contribute other than providing content (and that is a point worth remembering).

It's not uncommon for users to voluntarily contribute financially to forums in the interests of upkeep. The return is often some sort of "paying members only" chat area, and/or a real time chat area. One I have been a member of before called it "The Kitchen", as in "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". A place where paying members were not limited to much of anything. You could actually have chat as though you were with people in a pub. Serious rule breaches were still dealt with but you could have a dig and take the piss and have a laugh without the over-moderation endured elsewhere in the forum. I think you'd find there would be a decent number of people willing to contribute an amount of REAL money under similar circumstances.

crash wrote:
moderation is the process of adjusting statements and comments to ensure that the comments and statements stay within the rules.  If these statements or comments cannot be adjusted then they are removed.  This is pretty plain and simple.  If you abuse, berate, intimidate or belittle another member then be prepared for moderation.

Oh if only this statement were accurate. Moderation on THIS forum is also having a post changed simply because someone else thinks their wording is better than yours. E.g. Changing a thread title from "The New 2019 Roadmaster Elite" to "The Limited Edition 2019 Roadmaster Elite Announced" does not fall within the definition of moderation you've provided but moderation like that happens all the time, and that sort of thing in and of itself is actually a form of belittling and no better than telling someone it's "you're" not "your". I agree entirely with moderating attacks, abuse, berating, intimidation or belittling, etc. I have nothing against moderation when it's required. And it's pretty obvious when it is required.

crash wrote:
Censorship is removing content that is has nothing to do with the rules and regulations of the forum but is merely designed to stifle discussion around a particular topic.

According to who though? If someone can repeatedly post their views on the same topic why is it un-acceptable for someone with opposing views to repeatedly post their opposing views on the same topic? That's a real example by the way, and it's one sided censorship if the multiple posts of BOTH views aren't censored equally.

crash wrote:
The people that perform the moderation on this forum don't do this lightly and quite often there is discussion amongst other moderators as to the action to be taken.  They are doing the best that they can..............

If they don't like it, quit. I always laugh when I hear of anyone complaining of the effort required for their entirely VOLUNTARY role. If you're voluntarily doing something you don't like, stop doing it.

crash wrote:
In my opinion If you don't like it - leave.

Isn't that exactly what he's said he's doing? lol

Live free or die!
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crash
I have said my piece.

Cheers, Keith.
Ulysses #30673
IMRG #AU100394
Current: RoadMaster (ebony and ivory)
Highett Victoria Australia
Quote 0 2
DarkScout
crash wrote:
In my opinion If you don't like it - leave.
And I do believe I intended on doing just that crash, but you may have missed that hey, typing your overly long drawn out reply stating the obvious rules and regulations to state your point in an attempt at turning back on me.
Quote 1 0
DarkScout
crash wrote:
I have said my piece.

Cheers, Keith.
I'm very sure you haven't
Quote 2 1
DarkScout
CHF10 wrote:

What is someone to do though, in the circumstances where they are an expert in a field and also happen to be a proprietor of a business that directly profits off that expertise?

If I recommend speaking to Darkscout about his suspension solutions because I know first hand that they're fantastic and will significantly improve ride and handling, that's fine. But if he recommends his own product in the interests of ADVICE and not trying to make a sale, that's not allowed? He's actually better positioned to provide advice than I am but because he also sells something he mentions in his advice he can't say anything? He's not getting on and saying "buy this product I sell to solve your problems". He's getting on and explaining how something works and WHY it's better in ways I can't even begin to understand and letting people make up their own mind if they want to buy it or not.

I don't know whether I'm explaining it in a way that makes sense, but I was recently at the caravan and camping show and to draw on my experience there.... There were guys happy to talk with us as long as we wanted about the products without ever trying to sell us anything, answering every question we had until we were done, thanked them and left. And then there were the guys who the whole time you're talking to them keep pushing the sale and even as you're walking away will be pushing the "deal you can get if you buy today" type of thing. Darkscout isn't pitching a sale when he's providing advice.

CHF10 you have made my point exactly,

Will have a bike that will be undergoing a complete suspension overhaul next week, but I can post technical information on the procedure or information to help other owners if they wanted to do it for them selves, because its seen as selling my Darkscout suspension product, but it would be ok if I pay the forum to supply and post this technical data and suspension fitting procedures free that others could benefit from, so according to the moderators I have to pay the forum to post technical data and suspension fitting procedures that I offer for free in support to members.

Quote 2 0
Trent McDonald
Wow, are we not an Indian family? that just want to help each other out? and ride together and have a chat after our ride over a beer or two talking about our mods. I spent twenty years at sea as a captain looking at death in the eye on a regular basis,I find all this long winded conversations are not really helping the common Indian rider that wants to meet people and ride together. I come here to get away from my night mares and want to talk to people with a love of Indian motorcycle, not politics. Hmmm maybe I'm  on the wrong site. please tell me we are all here no matter what lifestyle we come from, aren't we  an Indian family!!!!!
Quote 6 0
Sean Judd

DarkScout wrote:
Over resent weeks or even days it has become very clear to me that this forum has lost its way from its original beginings to be a forum for free information sharing, I have been informed by the forum moderator that by post suspension setup advice or help with photo's attached depicting suspension that has any relationship to myself, as this is by the forum moderator as a soft selling or promoting a product to sell, nor am I able to helping others by making any suggestions on how to make improvements to the ride geometry of a motorcycle, as its promoting Darkscout Custom scout & bobber suspension, as it will be deleted and has been in the past, I may do so as long as I don't mention any products that has any relation to myself or the words Darkscout/suspension or any photo's with suspension in it, essentially making the posting of free suspension help information impossible, without having it deleted,  for me to support others members and help them I have to pay to forum a fee to supply and give out free information or help when asked. 

As I have made it clear to the forum moderator as they have also made it clear to me, I have no issues with paying the forum, providing I can edit my vendor section as I see fit, currently all the vendor section is a thread and requires a moderator to change delete old or irrelevant information, and in the past they the moderator would not remove an old out of date product as I requested this was the reason why I stopped been vendor in the beginning, and why I won't pay, as this forum has no privations for a vendor in the true form, so with the restriction that the moderator have imposed on me just make it to difficult to help others in a way that I would like, and as such I can see no advantage in been a part of this forum, having to pay to give free advice on this forum is not expectable.

At the end of this month I will be no long a member of this forum. I wish you all well stay safe and stay upright.
Just post your content. If mods want to waste their time editing/deleting valuable content then they will ultimately only hurt the forum itself. Everyone know's you're the suspension guy for Indians, therefore anything you say could be deemed commercial, including free advice. The only one that loses by moderating your content are the readers, the Indian riders.

I recall reading something along the lines of 'By the riders for the riders'. What happened to that philosophy?

Current 2018 Chieftain

Past 2016 Scout

Future I'm thinking old School 40s Chief. 

Quote 3 0
Robbo
I am not going to wade into the argument that is going on here but I did want to point out that I don't have a problem with Dark Scout's advice being posted. I always saw it as welcome advice and help for those who need it and part of what I think this forum aims to achieve.
2017 Dark Horse  - Stage 2, Rush Pipes

Location - Perth, Western Australia
Quote 4 0
OzOldie
As an aside, I will add in that DS said he had no issues with paying to be a vendor BUT also wanted his own access to his own vendor area... that's to be expected!

Quote:
As I have made it clear to the forum moderator as they have also made it clear to me, I have no issues with paying the forum, providing I can edit my vendor section as I see fit, currently all the vendor section is a thread and requires a moderator to change delete old or irrelevant information, and in the past they the moderator would not remove an old out of date product as I requested this was the reason why I stopped been vendor in the beginning, and why I won't pay, as this forum has no privations for a vendor in the true form
If you pay to be a vendor then find that they won't make changes you request, W-T-F are you paying for?

I haven't used your services or advice but am sad to see you go - any help like this that's freely available has got to be worth having... and I'd rather have it from someone who knows W-T-F he's talking about than some backyarder up in the hills.

But, yeah, all of these forums are twisting their little jackboot laces tighter and tighter.
They forget, in their "you need us" mantra, that they need forum members as well.  If it stops being fun, stops being informative, gets more fascistic... people will leave.

(Example, I had to change W T F before it'd let me post, FFS!)  (Is this Oz or Ozphukistan?) (Rhetorical question, I already have my opinions on that)
Quote 3 0
Hunter
Crash, my man you don't get to complain about the forum not collecting money when you also refuse to take donations. You sold patches, that didn't pull in a lot. People have actually begged for a way to contribute financially and been pointed to the patch thread. Your whole argument really kind of washes itself out.
Quote 4 0
Sean Judd

Personally I'd be happy to throw a couple of hundred towards the forum just to have my posts left alone.

Current 2018 Chieftain

Past 2016 Scout

Future I'm thinking old School 40s Chief. 

Quote 5 0
Thunder Scout
This is the biggest load of CRAP that i have heard. a member cant post info about a product that improves the ride, performance of a bike??? everyone should know about this stuff and be able to make there own decision as if they want to read or not. Can tell you from personal experience that DS has more knowledge, expertise and help that any Indian Dealership that i have visited. they basically fobbed me off with regard to a oil suspension leak and DS offered to fix my Susp for a parts cost only. Where were you Indian Dealership when services were required.
this forum i thought was created to share info?? obviously not
I'LL SUPPORT DS WHETHER HERE OR ON FB
South Eastern Melbourne
Quote 3 0
adge82
Both sides of this argument (is it really an argument?) are valid.
I have had some responsibility on a forum in the recent past, and its hard work when you are also living a life. It really sucks the fun out of a hobby in a hurry. Particularly when there are no real perks.

So moderators/site owners are usually under stress, trying to keep people happy, dealing with "he said/she said" problems (i havent seen any here, but im new). When you also have to go into your own pocket so that you can keep the stress.... Makes you wonder why you bother.

Dark scout seems to have a wealth of knowledge available to all of us. Yes it would be a shame to see him go. I was looking forward to the dyno day coming up, and maybe in the future i may look into suspension upgrades for my scout.
In the end, it is up to dark scout to decide if he wants to stay or not. I hope he does. He knows the limitations that will be placed on him, and it doesnt sound like he can live with them and remain here.

You would like to think that cool heads might prevail and a conversation could take place via email or PM, rather than in front of the rest of us, and that an agreement might come about.

As far as donations go.... Can be tricky.
I created some calendars for a forum, and they sold well. Raised quite a bit of money to go toward the running costs of the forum.. And shut down my PayPal account while i proved i wasnt a business. Nearly had to declare income via paypal to the tax office with the other stuff i had sold during the year as well. That wouldnt have been fun for my accountant to sort out i imagine.
Quote 5 0
indianchief
I suspect we wouldn’t enjoy having guests over to our home if they complain about our house or our hospitality. The difference in the real world is that we can pick who we invite to our home. Whereas, an online forum like ours, anyone can request to join.

We hoped that everyone joining our forum would be grateful to be part of our online community, and they would place our community’s interest ahead of their own. Unfortunately, some people continue to surprise us with their entitlement mentality.

In life, there are many important areas we want to focus our time and effort on - Be it our health, our family, our work or others. Holding multiple discussions amongst the national administrative team and writing a post of this nature does not appear on that list. As Crash has mentioned, this forum is run by Indian Motorcycle owners. It is a labour of love for all of us. We need all our members' support to make that happen.

Most people wishing to leave an online community, simply depart. They don’t stand on a soapbox drawing attention to, what they believe to be are, shortfalls of that community. That is putting their own agenda before the community’s interest.

It is difficult to understand why some individuals repeatedly criticise our forum, yet continue to return day after day.

When we looked back at the threads from the past, a few names stood out. Their names appeared in many of the troubled conversations. Most members would agree that we are one of the friendliest Indian Motorcycle forums in the world. That did not happen by accident. Our team of administrators "tapped people on their shoulders", when they stepped out of line. But we rarely ever did so to protect our administrators' reputations. We tolerated shoutings and name callings for the sake of harmony. That sort of behaviour is simply unacceptable.

We require members who are willing to put the community ahead of their own interest. This also means, culling people who do not possess the personality and character traits befitting of our forum.  As such, with the heavy heart, we have revoked the membership of the frequent offenders. I hope they find what they are looking for at another forum. We wish them all the best.

Going forward, we simply ask our members to treat us with the same level of courtesy as we have shown to our members.

If you are a new member, please visit 'Forum Help & Support' page to discover how to use this forum effectively.  Should you get stuck, post your questions on the same page.  One of our helpful members will assist you.
Quote 0 3
indianchief
DarkScout wrote:
...nor am I able to helping others by making any suggestions on how to make improvements to the ride geometry of a motorcycle, as its promoting Darkscout suspension...

...so with the restriction that the moderator have imposed on me just make it to difficult to help others in a way that I would like, and as such I can see no advantage in been a part of this forum, having to pay to give free advice on this forum is not expectable.
I will address what Darkscout said about "wanting to help the forum members with their suspensions". I haven't seen him online for a while so I analysed his activity records.

Over the 12 months period (1 March 2018 to 1 March 2019), Darkscout has contributed a total of 35 posts:

8 posts to organise a paid workshop for his scout suspension (Advertising)
7 posts about him being banned from the International Indian Motorcycle forum (Rant)
3 posts about Darkscout suspension group buy offer (Advertising)

Of the remaining 17 posts, 13 posts were about the suspension, and 4 posts about other general discussions.

Did we go through all this agony for one potentially useful post on suspension per month?

We ask a contribution of $230 per year (that's less than $20 per month) to be a Supporting Vendor. I respect that Darkscout was a founding member of this forum but we treat all of our business partners equally.

There are two sides to every story.

If you are a new member, please visit 'Forum Help & Support' page to discover how to use this forum effectively.  Should you get stuck, post your questions on the same page.  One of our helpful members will assist you.
Quote 0 2
V-Twin
This is a terrible day for all of us.  It should not have got to this point.
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
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