DarkScout Show full post »
crash
V-Twin wrote:
DarkScout, you are clearly unhappy with the warranty situation.

I think Kristopher was merely laughing at Crash's comment re: "Customer's ability was not enough to convince the dealer that customer didn't stuff it up".  It was not your situation he was laughing at, in my opinion.

I think we all understand how frustrating it is to deal with manufacturers re: warranty.  We all have certain expectations from a company we decide to buy from... sometimes they are met and other times, they are not met.  At least everyone is welcome to express their views here - a place to vent, if you like.  We may not all agree with everyone else's views but we are all sympathetic to rejected warranty claims.

I hope we've clarified that so, let's not start saying words we regret tomorrow, okay?  😘😬


I agree, I don't believe that anyone was "laughing" at darkscout or the situation with the warranty.  What is laughable is the hoops that a person has to jump through not to be "stitched up".
As I mentioned warranty is like insurance and there are two sides to it.
we (as consumers) would like a product that is fit for purpose and works as we would have expected it to (simple - or so you would think).
The shop / manufacturer (regardless of the product) is trying to minimise the impact of product returns (whether warranty or unsuitable).
the two mind sets will never meet.

The challenge that we all have is getting the two minds to come to a compromise and end up with a result that is "suitable" for both parties.
Now the problem with this is that, from a manufacturers perspective, warranty is an expense that is eating into their profits (the equivalent of someone putting their hand in your pocket and taking your money from your wallet).
from the consumers perspective, we view the resistance as being unfair (because they have already put their hand in your pocket and taken the money but not giving anything in return). 

There are courses of action that can be taken if the consumer is feeling particularly aggrieved by this behaviour and feels that they have a really strong case against the manufacturer / shop / importer. However this course of action should not be taken lightly and is not such an easy path to take - of course I am talking about vcat or ACCC.  To do this you are going to need two things - a mechanics certificate to indicate that this should have infact been a warranty claim and a mechanics certificate to indicate that the modifications (if any) did not have a direct bearing on the problem being argued.
If you have both of these things then the first thing that I would do is approach the dealer / shop and indicate that you have both of these things and then ask for rectification of the problem under warranty indicating what your next course of action is going to be.

Warranty is always going to be a prickly subject and we will all, at some point or other, be caught out by it.  As I have said in previous posts, the onus is not on the manufacturer to fix a problem, the onus is on the owner to prove that the problem needs fixing.

An example of this: (and it is trivial in comparison to the problem being discussed but helps (I believe) prove a point)
My RoadMaster seat has ripples in it.  The filler underneath the seat is bunching up in spots and is generating ripples that spoil the seats appearance and the comfort factor.  I had the discussion with the service team about replacing this seat under warranty.  My warranty claim was rejected on the grounds that normal wear and tear on the seat will affect the way that the leather behaves and what they witnessed was typical of a seat that had the same number of kms on it.
Whilst I was not particularly happy with this outcome there was very little that I could do as I could not prove that other seats did not behave this way with that many kms on the clock (so as you can see - the onus is now on me to provide evidence that their decision is incorrect - whether this is right or wrong is not the question - it is fact).
Now I could have taken this to vcat or the ACCC but without solid evidence they are just going to throw out my claim as being unreasonable.

Lord knows, if we were to talk to V-twin there is another example - go look for his thread on exhaust noise and excessive clacking - they are well documented.

Now, to relate this back to the problem being discussed.
There were two claims made.
The first was that the fork seal blew and this should have been covered by warranty.
Second was that if you make a modification to the bike the warranty is void.

The dealer indicated that because the modifications were made to the bike, the warranty for the fork seals is not going to be honoured.
Relating that to the example above, the onus is now on the owner to provide sufficient evidence that the modifications cannot possibly be the cause of the problem of the fork seals blowing (yes, there are many reasons that can cause the fork seals to blow but that is not the issue here).
If the owner can provide that evidence then there is no reason for the dealer to reject the warranty claim.  If however the owner cannot adequately convince the dealer that this was the case then I think you would be hard pressed to get this sorted.

And darkscout, you more than most understand what it's like to try and get something fixed on your machine under warranty however if you recall, when you were able to prove that under certain circumstances the problem was reproducible and that it was reproducible on other machines as well, I believe that the shop took your bike back and worked on rectifying the problem.  I also believe that they provided you with a loan bike to use whilst they had it in the shop.  I don't know all the details of that particular case but on the surface it would appear that they were doing everything that they could to rectify the situation (which is what we expect from warranty).  What I do know however, was that it took a bit of work on your part to prove that this was the case and that it should have been fixed (as I said, I don't know the intricate details or the discussions that were carried out so can only make this statement based on what I know).  Now whether they were able to rectify the problem or not is another issue - what is in discussion here is how they responded to your request for a warranty claim.

I don't think that anyone will argue with you that getting something done under warranty (especially if it's a big ticket item such as the ECM) is bloody difficult and I don't think that anyone will argue that it is no laughing matter.  But if you look at all successful warranty claims the one common denominator that they all have is that both the owner and the dealer had come to an agreement that the problem being discussed was not how it should be and that it should be rectified under warranty.

If there is something that I am taking away from this thread, it is going to be that if you believe that you have a warranty claim - make sure that you have the evidence that you need to counter any objections that may be encountered when negotiating the resolution to the problem.
Ulysses #30673
IMRG #AU100394
Current: RoadMaster (ebony and ivory)
Highett Victoria Australia
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V-Twin
DarkScout wrote:
the fork seals for whatever reason have have a failure rate well above normal for any road bike in normal operating conditions, this is not at all an isolated case, and they have used Bullshit to avoid warranty
That does appear dishonest that an Indian dealer stated that changing fork oil and spring was the cause if there are high rate of fork seal leaking on stock bikes.

As I see it, this might be the path one can take.  (a) You or your client can approach the dealer (same or different) and explain to them that you are aware that it is not uncommon for fork seals on OEM bikes to leak.  Could they explain to you in writting the logic they have employed to come to the decision that fork oil and springs caused the leak and therefore they rejected warranty.  Polaris hates putting things down in writing so they may refuse.  (b) Contact fork oil and spring company and inform them that Indian pointed the finger at their components as the cause of seal leak.   Ask if they have any documentation to support your claim that their products would not have caused the issue and get that to Polaris and ask for a response.  (c) At this point, instead of fighting with oil and spring companies, Indian might look after your client and replace the seal 'out of their kindness'.  If not and you believe you have sufficient evidence, time to visit Consumer Protection Agency and have a chat with them OR go straight to VCAT and lodge a claim.  Again, when they receive the order to appear, they may fix your client up.  If not, have a day in court and present your case.  If you have sufficient evidence, you win.  If not, you lose.

Of course, it is a lot of effort but if you are absolutely sick of the way Polaris is treating customers, this might be the only way.  I believe the cost of the motorcycle is a factor in VCAT decisions so.  Between the $30K - $40K motorcycle and evidence of seals leaking (print out of various forum pages discussing their leaks) on standard suspensions plus how the seal is not touched when your client replaced spring and fluid might be enough.

I am no lawer so I could be talking absolute rubbish.  Maybe others can suggest how to proceed in VCAT or equivalent in other States.

You might be starting a trend.  I understand the consumer protection act improved in Australia from January this year so this may not be uncommon in the future.  
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
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DarkScout
Yes the owner could do all that you have suggested V-Twin. 
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V-Twin
DarkScout wrote:
Yes the owner could do all that you have suggested V-Twin. 
But it is always time vs money, isn't it?  

How much would it cost to get the fork seal replaced?  Just one side that is leaking?
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
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crash
You never just replace one fork seal - always to them in pairs (you have got it off anyway).

Darkscout, I guess I am just being the devils advocate in what I have commented on.  The way that the dealer / shop will see it.

I normally go into the shop armed with this knowledge and say, ok, why would they knock it back? 
Could I have done something that caused it?
is it a faulty part?

Here is another example.
I had a kwaka voyager (1700 full dresser) and it developed a wobble in the front end.
The instruction from the shop was "keep both hands on the handlebars".
My argument was, it did not come like this and I want it fixed. If it had have had this wobble when I bought it first up, I would have returned it then and now is no different.
They said that they could not tighten the bearings up any further so I told them to replace the bearings for tapered roller bearings.
They did (even thought the tapered roller bearings were not standard issue under warranty) and the wobble went away.
problem resolved.

So I believe it is about how you approach the problem just as much as the problem itself (although granted getting warranty out of Polaris is becoming increasingly more difficult). 

For your client - if you wanted to pursue this, I would suggest a number of things.
1. I would ring Stirling (or rick from American Motorcycles) and ask under what circumstances would you expect fork seals to fail.
2. I would get as much info from any of the Indian forums (local and international) that indicates that they are failing.
3. Present this information to the shop and see where they will take it.
4. I would fill them in on the details of how you came to be at the Elizabeth street shop [smile]
Ulysses #30673
IMRG #AU100394
Current: RoadMaster (ebony and ivory)
Highett Victoria Australia
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V-Twin
crash wrote:
The instruction from the shop was "keep both hands on the handlebars".
😳😬🙁😤
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
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trwaterman
I'll just add my 2 bobs worth. I purchased progressive front springs (not dark scouts) and had them fitted by local Indian Dealer. Not long after surprise RHS fork seal s**t itself BUT replaced under warranty no problems. (although I thought they'd do both while at it but no just the one). I'm in the process of having a S&S filter and Dobeck Tuner fitted but Indian will do that as well for the same reason, if it turns pear shaped I'll be knocking on their door. A few extra $$$ for piece of mind. The only thing I've really installed myself was Dark Scouts rear shocks and its still the best addition of the lot.
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