V-Twin
I was out riding with a few mates today and having an absolute ball... until this happened.

I must have been doing about 90kph in the 5th gear. As I exited a sweeping bend, I cracked the throttle open and the bike revved-up momentarily, and then it lost power and decelerated at an alarming rate (in hindsight, I could have disengaged the clutch and rolled faster).  I may have even heard the engine cough (it all happened so quickly).  My bike effectively engine braked to about 40kph, and it refused to go any faster.  I have never heard of the limp mode activating on our Thunder Stroke engines (Edit: Since this post, I have heard from 5 other Thunder Stroke 116 riders experiencing limp mode!!  I speculate the cause is 60mm Throttle Body and the touchy Indian factory tune).  I guess I am special! ☹️  I also noticed the ‘Check Engine’ orange light lit up.

Just a few minutes earlier, I was overtaking cars and trucks. Imagine losing the engine power on the wrong side of the road. 🤔   Does anyone still remember the owner of the Volkswagon Golf getting squashed by a truck that was following her when the Golf unexpectedly lost power on the highway? 😬

Our ride group had turned off on to a quiet road, so I was lucky when my bike cracked the 💩.

After checking my mirrors, I experimented a bit. I was in the 2nd gear by then.  As I rolled on the throttle, it would accelerate at a rate that was hardly noticeable - a turtle pace, and only to a point.  When I twisted the throttle more than say about 20%, it began to slow down.  I tried the 3rd gear but the maximum speed I could achieve dropped even further.  Once on a downhill section, the 3rd gear let me get up to about 50kph!

While still rolling, I flicked the red kill switch.  Then I re-enabled the switch and dropped the clutch. The engine fired up again, but that made no difference. The bike was still in the limp mode.  I pulled over as soon as I found a safe spot.

That is when I noticed the erratic idle.  The bike would jump up to 1,500rpm on its own!!! (Thanks Darkhorse for capturing this on video)



While the bike was moving, pressing the black power button did not shut off the bike.  Once I pulled over, I could switch the the bike off.  I waited a few seconds and restarted the bike - this Microsoft Windows trick worked a treat.  The bike fired up and started to idling normally.  I blipped the throttle a couple of times, and it behaved as expected - normally.  I rode off and shifted through the gears.  I was able to get back up to the highway speed.

The Check Engine light was still ON.  If I am not mistaken, the Check Engine light comes on while you are riding, but once the bike restarts, the error code remains in the ECU data file but the Check Engine light disappears from the dash, unless the cause of the error persisted.

For the remainder of my journey home, the bike behaved normally.  However, despite the repeated shut down and restarts, the Check Engine light remained.  I pressed the toggle switch repeated to write down the the error code number, there was nothing to display - the word CHK ENG was nowhere to be found on the digital screen.  Only the orange warning light was lit up. 🤔

For the record, my bike is running the latest, February 2019 factory tune for the Stage 3 Big Bore kit and the catalytic converter is intact.  The ambient temperature was perfect for riding too.  We have been up in the hills so the temperature was in the high-teens and low-20s.
Melbourne, Victoria
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OzOldie
While it's tempting to blame this on the 116, it's likely to be a shorted sensor wire or something similar.

A genuine fault would register a code but a shorted wire or broken wire might give the physical results of a fault but no code (as there is no actual real fault).

Any wires or wiring looms going near those hot pots ('cos you were probably giving her the beans too, right?) - maybe a wire got melted and was intermittently shorting to give bad readings (where no reading would throw a fault code, a bad reading but still within some form of error margin might cause those events).

You're just a sh!t magnet, aren't you... especially with this.
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Dr.Shifty
I've had the same thing happen under acceleration. I was exiting a roundabout in 2nd and hit the throttle. The engine revved up as expected until the fault happened, which felt like hitting up against the rev limiter.

The bike would not rev up and would only go at very slow speeds. I pulled off the road and stopped/started the bike a few times and the Chk light went out.

There was no code showing when i went looking with the PVCX and the dealer could not find a code the next day.

When Rick was working on my bike last year I told him about it and he said he had another customer who's TS111 kept running into limp mode and they could not find a reason for it. Rick's take on it is that an oversensitive ignition advanced code triggers limp mode.
Cheers, Kim.

From Woodrising (no, nobody else has heard of it either)
Rides a Springfield Dark Horse
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V-Twin
OzOldie wrote:
While it's tempting to blame this on the 116, it's likely to be a shorted sensor wire or something similar.
I am not necessarily saying the S3BB was the cause. It could be a faulty ECU or sensors as you’ve mentioned. Nevertheless, my Thunder Stroke 111 has been reliable for 43,000kms. Only the faulty battery stranded me once. Within 4 weeks of fitting the big bore kit, my bike goes into the limp mode. Maybe it was the heat from the engine? Maybe the timing was a pure coincident? Maybe it was the solar flare? 😆

OzOldie wrote:
A genuine fault would register a code but a shorted wire or broken wire might give the physical results of a fault but no code (as there is no actual real fault).
What you are saying makes sense, but our bikes are very clever. There are cross checking systems built into the ECU software, and many (but not all) of the sensor faults like shorting or melting are indeed registered.

Our bikes generate an error code just for switching the engine off by lowering the side stand (a minor event) - and it remembers that error code until the workshop clears the code.  This event triggered a limp mode (a major event) and the Check Engine light did come on and stayed on for half-a-dozen restarts (I have never seen that before).  The ECU is unlikely to ‘forget’ the error code.  That is why I am thinking the ECU maybe intermittently faulty, but that’s just my long shot guess.  I will let the experts track down the cause.  Once reported to Polaris, my bike might even be taken off the road.  Jumping the gun here.  The cause maybe simple and fixed promptly as well.  I will keep everyone updated as any news comes my way.

OzOldie wrote:
('cos you were probably giving her the beans too, right?)
I don’t ride fast generally. We were also on a group ride so we were all being sensible - so no beans were given!

OzOldie wrote:
You're just a sh!t magnet, aren't you... especially with this.
That I am! ☹️🙈 I just hope the cause is identified and fixed soon.  How can I trust this bike now, if nothing is fixed?  It could do it again at any time.  I had zero warning when it happened too. 😬😬😬
Melbourne, Victoria
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CHF10
Holy crap! *pause* (that's me pressing pause on my S3BBK purchase)

That absolutely sucks man. Back to AAMC I'm guessing? Hopefully they can sort it out for you.
Live free or die!
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AAMC
Hi V Twin, 
I've left a voicemail for you this morning. You'll need to bring her in so we can check for fault codes & do a running service report. Call me when you can.
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V-Twin
CHF10 wrote:
Holy crap! *pause* (that's me pressing pause on my S3BBK purchase)
As far as I know, I’m the only one to attract this honour so far. Of course, if the Feb 2019 tune is the culprit, more people may experience this issue. Not knowing the cause, we just don’t know how wide spread this issue may become. At the moment, I’m the only one! 🙉🙈

CHF10 wrote:
That absolutely sucks man. Back to AAMC I'm guessing? Hopefully they can sort it out for you.
It wouldn’t be fair to dump my bike at AAMC. I would be out of my one and only transport as well. I have emailed Rick with the video. I suspect further instructions are required from Polaris. We are now in ‘waiting mode’.
Melbourne, Victoria
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OzOldie
V-Twin wrote:
I am not necessarily saying the S3BB was the cause. It could be a faulty ECU or sensors as you’ve mentioned. Nevertheless, my Thunder Stroke 111 has been reliable for 43,000kms. Only the faulty battery stranded me once. Within 4 weeks of fitting the big bore kit, my bike goes into the limp mode. Maybe it was the heat from the engine? Maybe the timing was a pure coincident? Maybe it was the solar flare? ðŸ˜â€ 
Not you, mate, me... I would have blamed the 116 and thought "fk that, I'm not buying one" - I was playing Devil's Advocate to myself.
V-Twin wrote:
What you are saying makes sense, but our bikes are very clever. There are cross checking systems built into the ECU software, and many (but not all) of the sensor faults like shorting or melting are indeed registered.

Our bikes generate an error code just for switching the engine off by lowering the side stand (a minor event) - and it remembers that error code until the workshop clears the code.  This event triggered a limp mode (a major event) and the Check Engine light did come on and stayed on for half-a-dozen restarts (I have never seen that before).  The ECU is unlikely to ‘forget’ the error code.  That is why I am thinking the ECU maybe intermittently faulty, but that’s just my long shot guess.  I will let the experts track down the cause.  Once reported to Polaris, my bike might even be taken off the road.  Jumping the gun here.  The cause maybe simple and fixed promptly as well.  I will keep everyone updated as any news comes my way.
Yeah, there is that for sure - the oddity of the code not appearing is worrying though. It's possible that an unrelated incident happened and the ECU got corrupted?

V-Twin wrote:
I don’t ride fast generally. We were also on a group ride so we were all being sensible - so no beans were given!
You on your roaring 116... no beans given... not even a few beans? (I'm not so much thinking of "over beaning" her (oh, the mental image there) but the heat generated, melty wires)

V-Twin wrote:
That I am! ☹️🙈 I just hope the cause is identified and fixed soon.  How can I trust this bike now, if nothing is fixed?  It could do it again at any time.  I had zero warning when it happened too. 😬😬😬
Yah, it's a worry. You want your ride to be reliable.

Maybe something went wrong in the throttle relearn?
Possibly an ECU re-flash then start again from scratch with the re-learn?

Things are getting too complicated nowadays.  I miss being arse up under the bonnet of my Falcon 500, piece of piss to work on.
Now it's all ECU-this and computer-monitor that, cars with 1/2 inch gaps around the engine to work in... "Fault codes" and plug-in computers to read the on-board one.

*steps off "Rant Today [TM]" soapbox*
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V-Twin
OzOldie wrote:
Not you, mate, me... I would have blamed the 116 and thought "fk that, I'm not buying one" - I was playing Devil's Advocate to myself.
Well... you might find my next post interesting.

OzOldie wrote:
You on your roaring 116... no beans given... not even a few beans? (I'm not so much thinking of "over beaning" her (oh, the mental image there) but the heat generated, melty wires)
Ok... just a little.  😄

OzOldie wrote:
Yah, it's a worry. You want your ride to be reliable.
Indeed.
Melbourne, Victoria
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crash
Look at the bright side - it's not clacking 😃
Ulysses #30673
IMRG #AU100394
Current: RoadMaster (ebony and ivory)
Highett Victoria Australia
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CHF10

crash wrote:
Look at the bright side - it's not clacking 😃

LOL!!!! Best laugh I've had today!

Live free or die!
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V-Twin
AAMC wrote:
You'll need to bring her in so we can check for fault codes & do a running service report.
Thank you AAMC for squeezing me into your busy schedule and generating the diagnostic report for Polaris.

CHF10 wrote:
Holy crap! *pause* (that's me pressing pause on my S3BBK purchase)
You may think this after reading this post.

Disclaimer: Everything I have written below is amalgamated speculations.

The error code never appeared on my little digital screen (inside the speedo) because it is not Polaris specific error code.  It is known as the 'On-Board Diagnostic' (OBD) Code. Specifically, 'Power Train' Error Code P1530.

error-code.jpg 

The error code says, "Requested Throttle Angle Not Plausible - This trouble code sets if the requested throttle angle is outside an allowable range. Can be caused by an invalid or incorrect ECU calibration."

Below is my interpretation of a very technical problem. 🤓

For this explanation, let's say a rider twisted the throttle 50%.  With a performance-focused throttle-mapping on the Stage 3 factory tune, that might equal 80% engine power.  The ride-by-wire grip sends a signal to the ECU to open-up the throttle blade to say 40-degrees.  Our Bosch throttle bodies are equipped with 2 throttle position sensors (for redundancy). They detect the actual throttle blade angle.  Then the ECU compares the 'target' blade angle with the ‘actual’ blade angle. If either one of the two sensors detects the blade angle to be outside the preprogrammed 'ceiling' angle, say 40.1-degrees, the ECU thinks the throttle body is malfunctioning. For all it knows, the throttle could be stuck wide open. Ever the hero, the ECU is concerned that I might ride off a cliff with the engine redlining. So to 'save me', the engine throttles down to a snail pace I have experienced.

The Bosch ECU is EXTREMELY complex. The ignition timing, for example, is adjusted by the ECU based on the four variables: engine temperature, air temperature, engine load and rpm. The actual instructions on what-happens-when are preprogrammed into hundreds of tables. These tables look-up variables on another table that looks up a different table and so on. Some of these tables have names like the "Twist grip to requested torque table", "Ceiling table", different tables of each gears, etc.,

While generating the required diagnostic report from my ECU, Jaydn checked over some of the potential issues, such as melted wires. From a quick inspection, no problems were detected.

Looking at my diagnostic data, although the ambient temperature was in the low-20s, my ECU registered the Intake Air Temperature of 39-degrees!! It recorded other variables like the Barometric Pressure of 101.0 KPA, Manifold Absolute Pressure of 96 KPA, Percent Engine Load of 78.4%, and the Engine Temperature of 124-Degrees C.  The ECU doesn't read all these info for no reason.  They are all utilised in one way or another.  


What's the cause of the limp mode?

We don't know. It is possible that my new 60mm throttle body may be faulty, specifically, one of the two throttle position sensors. Maybe the manufacturing variations exist and that my throttle body opens the blade a tiny fraction more than the 'average' 60mm throttle body?

It is also possible that the ECU tune is not allowing enough room for a margin of error. If for example, the preprogrammed ceiling table allowed the blade to move to 40.5-degrees before triggering the limp mode, this may have never happened, yet the ECU can continue to detect the abnormal throttle body behaviour.


Why the rough idle in the video?

If the speculation is correct and the ECU is unable to determine the exact angle of the throttle blade. The ECU maybe crudely maintaining the idle without the necessary information.


Don't expect a consistent performance from the 116 big bore factory tune

I have been saying that my 116ci engine has more power sometimes and less so at other times.  In fact, the power fluctuations may have a lot to do with the ECU factory tune as well.

The ECU also has many 'features' dedicated to protecting the engine. For example, it might pull the ignition timing a little when the engine heats up. Combine that kind of behaviour with dozens of other similar protective 'features', and we have a recipe for unpredictable and noticeable engine power loss.

With the big bore engine, the rider can better perceive the difference between the engine giving 100% power and just 90%. I believe that factory calibration is too conservative. After breaking the conrods in Stage 3 Big Bore v1 kit, Polaris is not taking any chances. They have set the tune to be extra conservative. That is what we want!  A conservative tune on a $4,250 performance upgrade!! 😏

In the past, I have praised the factory tune. I will rescind that rating. From the rideability perspective, the tune is still perfectly acceptable. However, if a rider wants the tune to provide consistent performance, the factory tune is not there yet.  When you see a dynograph of the 116ci big bore engine with a factory tune, you will not see a smooth graph line, but instead, you will see 'steps' like a staircase climbing up.  I believe that is the factory tune adjusting and interfering with the power delivery.


How long before you get your bike fixed?

Now we wait for Polaris to get back to AAMC and prescribe a suitable treatment and approve it under warranty.
Melbourne, Victoria
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V-Twin
crash wrote:
Look at the bright side - it's not clacking 😃
😳😬😧
Melbourne, Victoria
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Damich
crash wrote:
Look at the bright side - it's not clacking 😃

that's low Crash even by my standards ðŸ˜ƒ
Damian
North East Melb
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CHF10

Should I say it again? There is no "one size fits all" tune... You'd benefit from a custom dyno tune for sure. I know it's extra expense!

IF I go ahead with the S3BBK, I know I'll DEFINITELY be getting it done.

Live free or die!
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DAVO
Hi V sorry to see you have had some trouble with the 116 BBK, I was offered a ride last Saturday on the Sydney dealers demo 116 they had just built last week, it only had 10km on it when I went for a short ride, I was surprised by the aggressive throttle, there seemed to be a very slight flat spot down low some times, I was impressed with the torque when the bike got to around 2800 rpm, I don’t think I would buy a kit for my current Chiefs but if I was buying a superceeded 18 Chief yes I would take the current offer of the free kit, I would be adding the PVCX or PV3 flash tuner to the mix and refine the factory tune.
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Damich
CHF10 wrote:

Should I say it again? There is no "one size fits all" tune... You'd benefit from a custom dyno tune for sure. I know it's extra expense!

IF I go ahead with the S3BBK, I know I'll DEFINITELY be getting it done.

CHF10 I don't often do this but I have to agree with you on this point.😁😁😁
I have had no issue with my S3BBK with over 7000km on this V2 kit.
The weekend just past I rode over 650km with me lovely lady to northern Victoria and the bike was magnificent. Overtaking in top gear with power to spare.
The reason in my option is due to the custom Dyno tune AAMC did. The throttle was mapped to my liking and the power comes on about 2300rpm.
So I have to agree that the Indian OEM tune is very conservative like most vehicles today (car or bike), also just FYI I'm getting around 330-350km on a tank of fuel.
Damian
North East Melb
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V-Twin
I am sure a custom dyne tune will make a difference and even fix the issues I have.  HOWEVER, I will definitely blow the Indian extended warranty I have for the next 2 years plus.  I am hopeful that 116ci factory tune will improve over time.  The fact there was a 116 tune in January 2019 and another in February 2019 says to me that they are working on the tune actively and it is early days.  Once the tune matures, they only come out every 6 months or so.
DAVO wrote:
if I was buying a superceeded 18 Chief yes I would take the current offer of the free kit...
I am starting to hear that Polaris may make the 116ci the new factory engine... one source says it will be for the 2020 model year.  No body knows for sure but I thought I will share.

As for my limp mode issue I am having... surely losing the power while riding at 100kph does not require a custom tune to fix.  Let's see what Polaris says about this.  There might be an easy solution?
Melbourne, Victoria
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CHF10

V-Twin wrote:
I am sure a custom dyne tune will make a difference and even fix the issues I have.  HOWEVER, I will definitely blow the Indian extended warranty I have for the next 2 years plus.

Common misconception when it comes to modulations. ESPECIALLY with a tune. Your engine is far BETTER off with a custom tune specific for it than a flash tune. It will be safer and more efficient for your engine.

If anything significant happened in terms of a failure, it wouldn't be as a result of a custom tune. The failed component(s) would still be covered by warranty.

Live free or die!
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V-Twin
CHF10 wrote:
The failed component(s) would still be covered by warranty.
When you become the CEO of Polaris AU, I will get the tune.  Or once the warranty expires. 😀
Melbourne, Victoria
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twodogs
crash wrote:
Look at the bright side - it's not clacking 😃

damn! You beat me to it.
maybe “limp mode” will replace it...😂😩
2015 Roadmaster (blood & custard) 
IMRG member #AU100257
Galston, NSW Oz
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V-Twin
twodogs wrote:
damn! You beat me to it.
Why don’t you kick a fella while he’s down! 😢
Melbourne, Victoria
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V-Twin
Sorry Shifty, for some reason I didn’t see your post earlier.

Dr.Shifty wrote:
I've had the same thing happen under acceleration. I was exiting a roundabout in 2nd and hit the throttle. The engine revved up as expected until the fault happened, which felt like hitting up against the rev limiter. The bike would not rev up and would only go at very slow speeds. I pulled off the road and stopped/started the bike a few times and the Chk light went out. There was no code showing when i went looking with the PVCX and the dealer could not find a code the next day.
It does sound like your bike did enter the limp mode as well. An important question. When this happened, was your bike running the factory tune or a PVCX modified tune?

Dr.Shifty wrote:
When Rick was working on my bike last year I told him about it and he said he had another customer who's TS111 kept running into limp mode and they could not find a reason for it. Rick's take on it is that an oversensitive ignition advanced code triggers limp mode.
So it appears the limp mode is not as uncommon as I thought. Just in this short conversation, we have 3 bikes. I don’t suppose Rick told you if that other customer was running the factory tune or custom?

The reason I ask about the modified tune is due to the complexity of Bosch ECU and its relational tables I mentioned earlier. Changing the value on one table can increase the odds of this type of errors (depending on what values were modified). My take on the limp mode is, if the tune was fiddled, the owner/tuner is responsible. If the tune is factory, Polaris has the responsibility to ensure that their bikes don’t enter the limp mode unnecessarily.
Melbourne, Victoria
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Kappy
V Twin Oh F@#$%%

For what its worth I've done around 3k since my upgrade.

Still very happy.

The stock tune isn't brilliant, but OK, I don't feel the dealership can improve on the stock tune, probably will be be a decatt and dyno later in the year.

I got a tune from Fuelmoto for my PVCX, I have to say it was worse, haven't  had time to chase it up any further.

With the PVCX tune I had some stalling in 1st and even 3rd gear., so went back to stock tune.

So hope you get yours sorted.
Kappy

Growing Older is inevitable, Growing up is Optional.

BK AUS 1 68223
IMRG AU 101125

Current ride/s
2017 Indian Roadmaster-Willow Green/Ivory--Wicked Willow
Stage 3 BB 116
2000 ST1100 - AnaSTasia
Past rides irrelevant. except Suzuki RG500
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OzOldie
CHF10 wrote:
Holy crap! *pause* (that's me pressing pause on my S3BBK purchase)
Ha!  I pressed pause when he got to the throttle relearn stuff... this latest has me slapping on the ...

nope.jpg 

I'll stay 111.
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