Traded 2015 Vintage for 2016 Vintage - My Story Indian Motorcycle Reviews & Impressions >
Founding Member 7,820 posts V-Twin Founding Member 7,820 posts
V-Twin

Hi all,

Several people have asked me to keep them updated after I got my new bike so I've decided to create this thread. I will post updates from time-to-time to share my experiences and random thoughts regarding my new bike.

I have now ridden 10 different x ThunderStroke 111 powered Indians (of which, I have owned two) so I have come to understand the characteristics of Indian Chiefs reasonably well and what appears to me to be ‘normal’, ‘abnormal’ or ‘indifferent’.

Please indulge me as I ramble.


BACKGROUND

I've purchased a 2015 Indian Chief Vintage (Black & Red) in April 2015. I found out later that it was built in July 2014 (9 months old when I bought it). Presumably it was a very early build of 2015 model year bikes.


It never broke down but it did have several issues. It started 'clacking'* from about 3,000 miles (5,000 kms). As a remedy, I’ve added Rush Warhorse slip-ons with 3.0” baffles (louder than Stage 1 exhaust pipes), which suppressed the clacking reasonably well.

However, there where other issues. The following were the 'deal breakers' for me:

  • Intermittently, my exhaust sound would go flat or tame and loses the throaty V-Twin sound we all love so much. There is a long thread dedicated to that here: (http://indianridersforum.com.au/thr...e-111-exhaust-sound-goes-quiet-flat-tame.306/) - Which IMRG admin has deleted now (Polaris censorship at work).
  • The top end on our bikes are not exactly quiet but that's pretty normal for TS111. What is abnormal is, my engine would become hesitant to rev past 2,500rpm and sounded like I was abusing the engine. On other days, it sounded great and revved happily past 3,000 rpm. After I traded-in, I found out that my 2015 Vintage was down on power.
Naturally, I've tried everything I can to get all these fixed.

After I managed to record a video on fluke demonstrating my exhaust sound taming, I had Indian Head Office (HQ) Warranty Manager come out to the dealership and 'looked' at my bike. He authorised exhaust gasket to be changed. No surprise, that didn’t fix anything. When I followed up, they said 'We will do no more to investigate. Come back if something else happens.'

I was particularly disappointed as they didn't even check the engine. No compression test, no testing spark plugs or leads or anything. They looked for error codes on VCM. It had O2 sensor error but that went untouched as well.

After spending 5 months (on-and-off) trying to get things fixed, I’ve had enough! The engine had to blow up or something really obvious had to happen. I just got the standard reply we all dread, 'That's normal on these bikes.' [frown]

Meanwhile, joy of riding my bike diminished to a point where I would not ride the bike even on a beautiful day with nothing better to do. But I need a touring bike as my wife and I go away together frequently. I will admit that I looked around. But nothing came close to Indian Chief Vintage in appearance or performance (for a comfy cruiser).


TRADING-IN 2015 VINTAGE FOR 2016 VINTAGE

The negotiation process took a while. In the end, we reached a figure I could live with and traded-in my 2015 Vintage for a 2016 Vintage. About a week before we struck a deal, Springfield came out but I'm not a fan of hard bags so I was happy to get back on a Vintage. This time, I made sure it was a ‘fresh’ bike. Instead of a bike that has been sitting in the warehouse for 6 months or more. My new Vintage was built in January 2016, Compliance plated in March and I bought it in April.

It might be worth noting that Indian motorcycles, like other mass produced products improves over time. Components gets revised, redesigned, etc., So, if you are thinking of buying a new bike, I would encourage you to ask the dealer, ‘When was that bike built?’ Remember, Indian HQ and the dealer wants to sell old bikes first.

  Indian-3.jpg 


FIRST IMPRESSION

Wow! My new bike sounds GREAT! I thought my old bike sounded nice on its 'good days', but my new bike is simply awesome! I had Rush Warhorse slip-on pipes transplanted from my old Vintage so the exhaust note should have sounded identical but they are distinctly different (another indication that my old TS111 was not the 'best' example of Indian engineering).

Aside from the visible weld marks on the fuel tank and a more prominent whining sound from camshafts (http://indianridersforum.com.au/threads/constant-whistle-sound.453/), my 2016 Vintage is considerably better than my old. I am glad I took a big hit in my wallet and 'upgraded'. There really is no better bike out there that meets all my touring requirements.

I had a 2015 demo bike (Red and Cream) Vintage for 48 hours prior to picking up my new bike. Both the demo and my new bike have more power than my old 2015 bike. Without dyno figures, I cannot quantify it but if I had to guess... at least 10 - 15% more power. My new 2016 Vintage is happy to rev out to 4,000+ rpm all day long. No hesitation in revving past 2,500rpm like my old bike. Engine sounds consistent every single day!


IT TURNS IN SHARPER!


According to everything I have read, 2014, 2015 and 2016 Vintage have the same rake angle and trail length. So, nothing should have changed but my new bike turns into corners noticeably sharper! It turns in with less effort. I wonder if they accidentally assembled my Vintage with Springfield frame with 25 degrees rake? Maybe triple tree has new bearings? I don't have an answer, just speculations, but I am 100% sure my Vintage takes corners with ease compared with my old Vintage. Good stuff!!!


SOFTER SADDLE


I can not say with any certainty but 2016 saddle appears to have different foam. It feels like they have a thin layer of softer foam on top. Compared to my old Vintage, my new saddle feels softer and therefore more comfortable.

It maybe that, foam in my old bike has been compressed over the past year and therefore the new bike feels more comfortable. I am not sure but that is my observation.


NEW TAN LEATHER, AGAIN!


So we all know about the 2014 tan leather that faded easily.

In 2015, there was a revised tan leather. Officially, there was only one style but most of us have seen two distinct styles of tan leather: (a) leather with some texture and patterns; and (b) leather that looked like vinyl and had very little texture and patterns. Indian's official line is, "Leathers are all unique and can appear different."

I've had option (a) from above on my 2015 Vintage. Sure, it didn't look as nice as 2014 tan leather but I was happy not to have to maintain it. When I first got the 2015 Vintage, I had a professional paint protection and UV leather protection applied. Interestingly, leather protection was absorbed by the leather and by the 3rd coat, all the leather appeared 40% - 50% darker until the UV protection dried the next day (then they returned to more-or-less the normal colour).

When I received my 2016 Vintage, I had the UV protection applied by the same guy (same product). Even after 3 heavy coats, my new tan leather (saddle and bags) hardly changed colour. According to my paint protection guy, when he applies UV leather protection on convertible car seats, the colour does not change either.

I don't know what this really means but I can say that 2016 tan leather absorbed considerably less liquid. From this, I will conclude that 2016 tan leather is different to 2015 tan leather… despite similarities in appearance.


NO OIL COOLER

Unlike 2015 Vintage, 2016 Vintage does not come with an oil cooler. The warmest weather I rode so far has been 26 degrees C... I also got stuck in traffic for 20 minutes with bike idling. My right thigh did get toasty but as soon as I started moving, it was not an issue. By the time I rode 200m and stopped at the next lights, engine/exhaust seems to have cooled down enough that it was emitting normal heat.

I am yet to go though our hot summer on this bike, but so far, I have not missed an oil cooler and most likely, I will not add one.


ANYTHING ELSE?

The paint around the tank filler on my old bike was rough. They fixed that on the new bike. Presumably after the Scout bike incident. Interestingly, the filler cap on my new bike is lighter than my old. Everything appears the same.


IN A NUTSHELL

I am very happy with the new bike. It would have been so nice if my first bike was like this but that was not to be.

Long live the Indian!!

  Indian-2.jpg 

——————————————

* WHAT IS 'CLACKING'?

'Clacking' is a term used to describe Thunder Stroke 111 (TS111) engines with ‘unusual’ top end rattle under the following conditions:

  • Ride TS111 at constant rpm of around 1,900rpm to 2,300rpm
  • Ride on a flat road (not going up hill or down hill)
  • Ride with minimal throttle (not accelerating and not decelerating) like using cruise control

TS111 starts to rattle and you can hear clacking sound from right-hand side of the engine. Some bikes never do this. In fact, most TS111 do not appear to exhibit this characteristics. Greater number of earlier build bikes appear to suffer. Even 2016 models still have this issue (Revised: some 2017 models have been reported as clackers).

Some 'clacking' bikes rattle or clack mildly. Some clack like you are shaking a paint spray can (with marble inside) hard and fast. The clacking sound is distinct and stands out from the normal top end rattle as it is not speed dependent nor is it ‘in rhythm’ with engine revs. It just sounds out of place. The sound will disappear as soon as you twist the throttle a little and accelerate. This was repeatable on my 2015 bike and I was able to demonstrate it to the dealership (I was told it was 'normal' and no further investigation took place). Majority of the bikes in demo fleet did not clack (except 1 other). So, it is difficult for me to accept this as ‘normal’. Out of 10 TS111 I have ridden so far, clacking was present on 3 bikes.

For known causes of 'clacking', see http://www.indianmotorcycleforum.com.au/post/causes-of-indian-thunder-stroke-111-engine-clacking-8168637
Melbourne, Victoria
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gazman Founding Member 476 posts
gazman
Good write up V-twin.[thumb]
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DarkScout Full Member 305 posts
DarkScout
Hey most excellent rite up dude,,, one day I hope to do something like that,,, I just hate typing...
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John Bryant Junior Member 35 posts
John Bryant
My impression is that taking delivery of a new bike (or anything for that matter) is a bit of a pig in a poke. The bloke who torques the whatsit to the gidgit may have just been ditched by his ninth wife, and have his mind on other things. Or perhaps the Final Quality Inspector just gave up booze and converted to XXXism and believes the Great Power demands absolute adherence to the Laws of the Factory. Multiply these vagaries down the supply chain and you can't be certain of anything (Except, of course, the price).

There are so many possibilities even in a mass produced bit of gear that some will invariably be better than others.
My real name is BLUEY !!!!!         Ulysses #813
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John Bryant Junior Member 35 posts
John Bryant
... and then of course there's straight outright sabotage. I've heard a rumour that there's a bloke in the engine assembly plant at Polaris who was tortured by Indians as a kid. His revenge is that he smuggles Clackers in his lunch box and fits one to every 23rd bike when no one is looking,,,, scary!!!!!!
My real name is BLUEY !!!!!         Ulysses #813
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V-Twin Founding Member 7,820 posts
V-Twin
John Bryant wrote:
My impression is that taking delivery of a new bike (or anything for that matter) is a bit of a pig in a poke. The bloke who torques the whatsit to the gidgit may have just been ditched by his ninth wife, and have his mind on other things. Or perhaps the Final Quality Inspector just gave up booze and converted to XXXism and believes the Great Power demands absolute adherence to the Laws of the Factory. Multiply these vagaries down the supply chain and you can't be certain of anything (Except, of course, the price). There are so many possibilities even in a mass produced bit of gear that some will invariably be better than others.


John, I hope you are not working as a counsellor!  ...cause if you are trying to make me feel better, it ain't working.  [rolleyes]
Melbourne, Victoria
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Kimbo Junior Member 26 posts
Kimbo
V-Twin Thanks for taking the time to let every one know of the issue's you had with your first bike, its a bit disappointing that you never received the support in rectifying these problems and it had to come to the stage that your only option was to trade your bike in. I must say when I read your post you me checking my build date of my bike and i wonder if I got a clacker as well won't know until I get a few more K's on it.
Rush 4'' Slipons with 3'' Baffles
Indian Big Sucker Air Cleaner
Dobeck EJK
Oil Cooler
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Robbo Founding Member 1,178 posts
Robbo
I have been worried about mine clacking as well and I was spending too much time listening for it and worrying. I have decided that I like thecway it sounds and I am going to enjoy it until I hear a sounds I don't like and then I will decide how much of a worry it is..
2017 Dark Horse  - Stage 2, Rush Pipes

Location - Perth, Western Australia
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V-Twin Founding Member 7,820 posts
V-Twin
Kimbo & Robbo,

One thing I can say with certainty is that: "Do not try and listen out for the sound." If you hear it once, you will hear it again and again. So, best not to know. I know it sounds like an ostrich method of dealing with it but what are the options?

Polaris says, 'It is normal for some of these bikes to clack... even after I pointed out that mine did not clack before 5,000kms AND not all of their demo bikes clack.' In any case, warranty repair will be denied. Please bare in mind, I didn't trade in because of clacking... I bought louder pipes to mask it.

When you hear clacking for the first time, you will know. Because the sound is very out of place... it does not clack or rattle to a beat. It is just very random sounding and 'wrong' beat. No need to listen out, if you hear it, you will recognise it.
Melbourne, Victoria
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V-Twin Founding Member 7,820 posts
V-Twin
UPDATE: AUGUST 2016 (10,500kms)

That whining sound I mentioned in my original post has all but disappeared. It probably went by 6,000kms.

I have ridden from Melbourne to Brisbane in April and Melbourne to Alice Springs in May. The bike has not missed a beat. It never broke down. I would say it is one of the better examples of Indian engineering. Thank goodness!!

If you are interested in following my bike's progress, follow on to think link. I have fitted Stage 2 Cams at around 3,000kms.

http://www.indianmotorcycleforum.com.au/post/stage-2-camshafts-my-impressions-8119939
Melbourne, Victoria
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Richard Dixon Full Member 153 posts
Richard Dixon
Hey V-Twin,
Im interested in the Stage 2 Cams.... did it give you much more ?
'How much did they slug you ?

I also ran into someone the other day & they suggested knocking some baffles ? out to give it more breathe & better sound  ?
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Richard Dixon Full Member 153 posts
Richard Dixon
Hey V-twin, disregard my last - I have just read your post
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V-Twin Founding Member 7,820 posts
V-Twin
Richard Dixon wrote:
Im interested in the Stage 2 Cams.... did it give you much more ?  'How much did they slug you?
Hey Richard, check this link out.  I wrote my impression of Stage 2 Cams.  After reading, if you have any questions, feel free to ask mate.  They cost $1,200 fitted.  Indian does 10% discount from time to time (about 4 times a year)... if you can wait, might be worth while...

http://www.indianmotorcycleforum.com.au/post/stage-2-camshafts-my-impressions-8119939

Richard Dixon wrote:
suggested knocking some baffles? out to give it more breathe & better sound?
Hmmm... okay, please understand this is only my impression.

Knocking baffles out of the stock pipes DO give you more sound BUT it is not as nice sounding as Stage 1.  Having had my own set of Stage 1 for 6 months and switched to Rush Warhorse, I found Stage 1 to be a little too quiet for my liking... and pricy.

It is said that Air Cleaner (AC) is more restricting than pipes.  Most people who had just the pipes done don't feel any power increase.  The revised Stage 1 tune seems to (not 100%) change the throttle map so 10% twist might give you 15% power... which lead to some people thinking there's more power.  If you do both AC and pipes, the power increase should be noticeable but nothing to really write home about... if you know what I mean?  

If I bought a new Indian tomorrow and I still had the money, I will probably do the following in that order:
  • AC + Rush Warhorse slip-ons (not the full header... I found removing catalytic converter loose low end torque)
  • Stage 2 Cams is totally optional.  I did it for lumpy idle.  The bike is less refined for my liking now but... it did give me a decent power increase.  You can skip S2C and go straight to PVCX, if you prefer.
  • Power Commander V... well, now that new Power Vision CX (PVCX) is out, I will get that BUT after getting a tune from FuelMoto, I will still get it looked at by a reputable tuner in AU to fine tune on the dyno.  This should give you about the same amount of increase in power as S2C.  
If you do the lot, you will never be able to ride a stock Indian again.  It is very obvious difference in performance.
Melbourne, Victoria
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Paul Robert Judd Junior Member 22 posts
Paul Robert Judd
Hi V-Twin,
Having been in the clacker club I am wondering if the 116 kit was put in place to rectify this issue? 
My new bike being standard definitely needs the Thunderstroke AC fitted and the V&H turndowns that I am going with as it is starving for air and does not have the grunt that the MY16 had.
You were spot on with exhaust sound being different from bike to bike my 2015 Vintage sounded like a sewing machine with a tinging sound and my 2017 has a better note without the tinging noise.
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CHF10 Senior Member 2,396 posts
CHF10
Paul Robert Judd wrote:
my 2015 Vintage sounded like a sewing machine with a tinging sound and my 2017 has a better note without the tinging noise.


Hahahaha! That's exactly how I described the sound of the stock demo when I was shopping. The Stage 1 intake and exhaust, well exhaust at least, is definitely needed to get the TS111 to sound closer to how it should imo. [biggrin]
Live free or die!
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