faceonahead
V-Twin wrote:

  BTW, I always use 98 octane.


Hi, I know the dealer advised when I collected by DH and I am sure its in the manual 111's are designed for 95 octane.

Frankly 98 (imo) is a waste of $'s for the little extra improvement in wear/tear and engine performance, mileage you get on any bike or car

2020 Challenger Dark Horse, stage 1 pipes and air and a stack of minor mostly cosmetic mods
Quote 0 0
V-Twin
faceonahead wrote:

Frankly 98 (imo) is a waste of $'s for the little extra improvement in wear/tear and engine performance, mileage you get on any bike or car

This is an interesting topic.  I have made it a new topic for our discussion.

I know Americans can get 98 octane fuel easily.  There 'best' octane is 95.  So, maybe everything is tuned for that.

I have also heard some people say 98 octane 'never goes off' but someone else said, '91 doesn't go off but 95 and 98 does due to additives'.  I do remember watching a show like MythBusters (but it wasn't that) that seem to show that 95 and 98 didn't really make much of a difference and didn't warrant the price difference.

I personally do it for the built in fuel injector cleaning property in BP Ultimate 98.  Also, once I pick up my bike after getting the Power Commander fitted, it is setup for 98 so...

But, I encourage discussion about this as I always wondered if 98 was worth it.
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
Frumpy
I use 95 or 98, especially in Summer. If I used 91 the engine would ping terribly.
2014 Red Chief Classic Stage 1 Pipes and AC
2017 Victory Octane
Quote 1 0
V-Twin
Frumpy wrote:
I use 95 or 98, especially in Summer. If I used 91 the engine would ping terribly.

Do you have a preference between 95 and 98?  If so, why?
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
Frumpy
Nah, if 98 is at servo I'll use that otherwise I'll use the next best.
2014 Red Chief Classic Stage 1 Pipes and AC
2017 Victory Octane
Quote 0 0
faceonahead
So I use 95 only.  only 98 if I cant get 95 (fuel out, pump broken etc)  I do 80% CBD (inner city sydney peak hour and around greater sydney all day) + 20%, maybe 30% open road. I get 6l/100km mixed conditions, and I dont put around, to be fair I ride my DH like I stole it everyday within in speed limits though (I know you are watching mr policeman) 

As for fuel going off, not sure about that, but I can tell you additives change with the season and location.  For example if you live in the snowy's the additives during Autumn/winter is very different to back end of spring and summer and this is to help support your vehicle and the fuel when at lower temps  If you fill yoru tank in winter and garage your bike and then jump on in Spring and go for it, it feels like it runs like a dog, and its more fuel than sitting idle thats for sure!  These sorts of bend changes are routine around the world and especially in areas where we have significant swings.

As for the old debate over 98 Vs 95.  I agree 98 keeps things cleaner, but it in my opinion is more expensive than a few tanks of 95 and then a tank of 95 with a good mugen additive etc.  Extra mileage argument for 98 over 95.  Tell me, how much more does the fill cost?  Do you get the extra kms to justify it?

Ultimately I reckon unless there is a long term mechanical reason Im unaware of(and if so wouldn't manufacturers want us using a fuel that causes less risk of warranty issues during warranty period) then I think its a bit like teh apple Vs android debate and thus I leave this reply by saying each to their own, but if you use E10 I might just come steal yoru bike and give it to someone who would love it instead of treating it like a cheap ho with no lube up the no 2
2020 Challenger Dark Horse, stage 1 pipes and air and a stack of minor mostly cosmetic mods
Quote 0 0
V-Twin
Re: Riding like you stole it - [biggrin] Re: Fuel additives- I didn't realise petrol had different formula for different season. I knew that fuel sitting in the tank for a few months isn't good for the vehicle and can stall or hesitant to rev, etc., Re: 95 v 98 - What you say make sense... Just get 95 and add the additive... hmmm... Re: E10 - [thumb] [biggrin]
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
gazman
Always use 98 BP Ultimate or 95 if 98 isn't available then Caltex next choice.
Quote 0 0
faceonahead
V-Twin wrote:
. I knew that fuel sitting in the tank for a few months isn't good for the vehicle and can stall or hesitant to rev, etc., [thumb] [biggrin]
(my undertstadning) is usually thats because the tank wasnt full and you get moisture and water mixing with it, if you park for a few months I was always taught totally full or totally empty
2020 Challenger Dark Horse, stage 1 pipes and air and a stack of minor mostly cosmetic mods
Quote 0 0
andrew
bp 98
located:  Gold Coast
Darkhorse, stage 2
Quote 0 0
V-Twin
andrew wrote:
bp 98

Why mate?
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
andrew
i have an account with bp for my biz & like a sheep i just guessed if it was more expensive it must be better, sorry no pearls of wisdom [smile] 
located:  Gold Coast
Darkhorse, stage 2
Quote 2 0
BlackVintage
BP 98 also. Why? Because I think it is the best and have had no issues scince day dot. I love my scooter and it gets the best.
Quote 2 0
V-Twin
andrew wrote:
i have an account with bp for my biz & like a sheep i just guessed if it was more expensive it must be better, sorry no pearls of wisdom [smile] 

The pearl is your honesty mate!   [thumb]

...I wouldn't be surprised if half of us are like you.
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
V-Twin
Interesting to hear that amongst those who use 98, most have said BP.
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
BlackVintage
I think at the refinery said fuel starts off at the claimed rating. With a bit of age sitting around in the fuel station holding tanks, by the time it sees my bike tank, I would be surprised if the 98 manages enough bang to be 95. That's my reasoning for sticking to the highest quality I can get.
Quote 0 0
faceonahead
Hi All,

The octane rating is a measure of a fuel’s ability to avoid knock. Knock occurs when fuel is prematurely ignited in the engine’s cylinder, which degrades efficiency and can be damaging to the engine. Knock is virtually unknown to modern drivers. This is primarily because fuels contain an oxygenate that prevents knock by adding oxygen to the fuel. This oxygenate is commonly referred to as octane.

The higher the octane number, the more resistant the gasoline mixture is to knock. 

re fuel degredation (stolen from http://www.swri.org/10light/fuelqual.htm)

In order to answer this question adequately, a general understanding of gasoline is required. First, gasoline is not a pure substance, but a mixture of more than 500 hydrocarbons with boiling ranges from ambient temperatures to about 400 degrees F. The general composition of traditional gasoline is about 50 to 70 percent saturates (single-bonded carbon and hydrogen), 10 to 40 percent aromatics (for example, benzene), and 2 to 10 percent olefins (double-bonded hydrocarbons like cyclopentene). Oxygenated fuels add oxygen-containing compounds, such as ethanol and methyl tert-butyl ether, better known as MTBE, in quantities of about 12 to 15 percent.

Saturated hydrocarbons are the major component of gasoline, and lucky for us, they are relatively stable. They can improve octane ratings, depending on branching and the number of carbon atoms, and promote efficient combustion. Unsaturated hydrocarbons (olefins and aromatics) are unstable and tend to burn in air with a smoky flame, but they can improve octane ratings. They tend to be reactive and toxic. Oxygenates provide antiknock value and may also reduce the smog-forming tendencies of exhaust gases.

Because liquid gasoline itself does not burn, but the vapor is what burns, an important item to consider is volatility or the tendency of the gasoline to form vapors. In order to start a cold engine, enough of the low boiling components, or "light ends," must vaporize at cold engine temperatures in order to form a combustible vapor-air mixture. The vapor pressure of fuel must be high enough to facilitate engine starting, yet not so high as to contribute to vapor lock or excess emissions and running losses. The light ends needed for easy starting have the same tendency to vaporize in storage or in the air space within the gas tank of a small engine. Eventually light ends can be evaporated out of the liquid gasoline from the daily temperatures that the storage tank or fuel tank is subjected to in storage. This concentrates the heavier components in the gasoline, thus severely reducing the fuel's performance characteristics.

Water from high humidity in the air also can contribute to fuel degradation. If the water vapor condenses during the cooling cycle, this will contaminate the gasoline with liquid water. The presence of oxygenates in the fuel can cause additional problems because the water will tend to draw out certain oxygenates from the gasoline into a water/oxygenate layer, thereby changing the composition of the fuel.

The big problem that causes the gum or shellac is the reactions of olefins and diolefins, which, under ambient temperatures, slowly combine with oxygen in air, or oxidize. These reactions become faster as the temperature of the gasoline increases. Some of these gums are soluble in gasoline, but will remain as a sticky residue when the gasoline evaporates. Severe oxidation of gasoline may also produce an insoluble gum. This can also be observed in the gasoline containers we keep to "top off" our small engine fuel tank. This fuel may smell sour, which is also an indicator of olefin decomposition. Although things may look bleak, there are solutions. First take a look at the service manual. Most recommend that gasoline be less than 30 days old. In addition, storing the fuel is important. The container must be kept filled to about 95 percent capacity. Also, the container needs to be capped tightly. Finally, containers of gasoline and the fuel tank of the small engine need to be kept out of direct sunlight and in a location where the temperature stays below 80 degrees F. By the way, this is not just a small engine concern - automotive dealers have noted a problem with gum formation in cars left on the lot in the summer with less than three gallons in their tanks.

Additional steps can be taken that will help prevent gum formation in small gasoline engines. First, run the engine until there is no fuel in the tank or fuel delivery system, and store the equipment empty. This is known as dry storage. The only problem is that water can collect in the system due to condensation. Alternatively, a fuel stabilizer or anti-oxidant may be added to the tank and the engine run long enough for the stabilized fuel to make its way through the entire fuel system. However, the best idea is to start with a fresh tank of fuel when you are ready to use the small engine again.

2020 Challenger Dark Horse, stage 1 pipes and air and a stack of minor mostly cosmetic mods
Quote 2 0
V-Twin
Hey Face,

My head hurts now!   I think I understood parts of it.    [smile]

I just found a portable octane tester.  http://shatox.com/catalog/i-4-octanetester.html

If I could borrow one of these, I will test my half-a-dozen nearby BP and see who's got fresh petrol.  And if it is below 98 octane, I will let them know (and see what they would do).   [biggrin]
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
faceonahead
You also need to consider law of diminishing returns so if 95 removes risk of knock then what is 98 giving that 95 isn't
2020 Challenger Dark Horse, stage 1 pipes and air and a stack of minor mostly cosmetic mods
Quote 0 0
DAVO
V Twin the fuel they use in the States is crap they mostly use 91 octane with ethanol over there, you might find 93 octane at some servo's but most fuel over there has ethanol in it, high octane fuel is hard the find in States it is mostly race fuel, the Chief is designed to run on 91 octane, BP98 is the standard used in motor racing here in OZ as it is a clean fuel with no additives added, I have used BP95 in my Chief acouple of times no noticeable difference in performance but I use BP98 mostly as I know the fuel is clean! I use BP95 or Caltex 95 in my 2 stroke dirt bikes as 98 tend to fowl the spark plugs, never use Shell V power in bikes as it known to fowl spark plugs in motorcycles.
Quote 0 0
V-Twin
faceonahead wrote:
You also need to consider law of diminishing returns so if 95 removes risk of knock then what is 98 giving that 95 isn't

I would assume that 98 has higher resistance to knocking?  So, if we were to get a custom PCV tune done, the mechanics might be able to extract a little more from the engine knowing the bike will always use 98 oct?
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
V-Twin
DAVO wrote:
in the States is crap they mostly use 91 octane with ethanol over there... Chief is designed to run on 91 octane

I remember that... strange, isn't it that Yanks don't have easy access to 'good stuff'.

DAVO wrote:
BP98 is the standard used in motor racing here in OZ as it is a clean fuel with no additives added

Specifically BP?  I didn't know that.  I wonder why?  Why not any other brand of 98 oct?

DAVO wrote:
never use Shell V power in bikes as it known to fowl spark plugs in motorcycles.

Oh ok.  It is interesting to learn about petrol.  Who would have thought there was this much to talk about petrol?    [smile]     It is great!
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 0 0
Robbo
I use 98 in my bikes mostly out of habit from thinking it will make the bike go better. In my old Shovelhead this is true as it has an old fashioned non computer controlled engine and it goes noticeably better on 98 (it also knocks like a bastard on anything less).

The new Idians have a computer that has a knock sensor and this alters the timing to eliminate pre-ignition (knocking) which can damage the engine. The higher the octane rating the more better optimised the timing so it improves performance (not the fuel specifically). But as I understand it the range of timing variation is enough to account for 94 but beyond that and there is no difference so it is just wasting money to use 98 (and yet I still do).

There might something to be said for the cleaning effect but I have been told, by the dealer for a Turbo vehicle I had, that you only need to do this about once every 4 fills.

I am not sure if the Dobec or Power Commander units over ride the computer knock sensor but if they don't tuning them for 98 might be reaching beyond what the bike can achieve and may end up being sub optimal tuning.
2017 Dark Horse  - Stage 2, Rush Pipes

Location - Perth, Western Australia
Quote 0 0
V-Twin
Robbo wrote:

you only need to do this about once every 4 fills.

That's a good tip for people who might be interested in using 95 or even less... as long as they use 98 once in a while, it will keep the injectors clean.

Robbo wrote:

not sure if the Dobec or Power Commander units over ride the computer knock sensor but if they don't, tuning them for 98 might be reaching beyond what the bike can achieve and may end up being sub optimal tuning.

I'm stepping out of my knowledge envelope so please excuse me if I have no idea what I'm saying.

As I understand it, 'engine knocking' (pinging we hear, which can cause damage to the engine) happens when fuel/air ignite at the wrong time within the 4 stroke engine cycle. Spark ignition should be the only time when fuel ignites.

There are several 'fixes' fo prevent such knocking:
- Change the air/fuel ratio (enrich, I think)
- Reduce the load on engine (use lower gears)
- Retard ignition timing
- Use higher octane petrol (which raises the combustion temperature so only the spark can ignite)

So when creating a custom tune using Power Commander (Dobeck can not be 'tuned' so much as 'adjusted'), it seems to make sense to me that higher octane fuel will enable an engine tuner to get a bit more out of the engine (then the same engine running lower octane).

Re: overriding knock sensor - I don't believe any overriding is required as the custom tune will still be trying to avoid causing an engine knock.
Let's be kind to one another.
Melbourne, Victoria
Quote 1 0
Kimbo
Full Strength like my beer BP 98 or mid strength 95 when I can't get the other.
Rush 4'' Slipons with 3'' Baffles
Indian Big Sucker Air Cleaner
Dobeck EJK
Oil Cooler
Quote 1 0